31. [Replay] How Accessible is KeyForge?

[00:00:00] Hey there KeyForge fans today. And for the rest of December, we actually have, uh, some, uh, replay episodes for you from my previous podcast, with at Polk Huck call of discovery. This episode is where I interviewed, uh, BJ, AKA Mr. Board gamer on how accessible is KeyForge as a game. How easy is it for people to get into how easy is it for to learn?

And he and I chatted about basically all the factors in KeyForge and how KeyForge is set up that make it easy or not to get into talking about these dynamics to really equip. Uh, any of you super fans out there with ways to think about the game that might help out new players as you introduce them to it.

And if you're a newer player, you can kind of reflect on how the game is set up and maybe how well you were able to learn the game. Through how easy it was to understand. So this is a replay episode from called discovery. This one originally launched in the summer of 2021. So it has been a hot minute since you've heard this one.

Even if you are a [00:01:00] call of discovery listener. And then next week, we're going to have the replay of me and ed on call of discovery. Discussing team covenants, power seven. And KeyForge the power seven is a, there are seven concepts of car game design that can really make or break your game. Uh, when used properly.

And it was a fascinating topic about mechanics in car games. And KeyForge of course, whether it's multiple paradigm shifts interacts with those power seven. And really interesting ways. Uh, without further ado here is the episode. And man, if you were called discovery, Fran, I know you are looking forward to hearing the intro music.

So I've left it in for you.

[00:02:00] Hello and welcome to Call of Discovery, the podcast where we invite you on a journey into the Crucible for a weekly or fortnightly celebration of all things KeyForge, its community, and of course, the excitement. of Discovery. I'm somehow still here as your co host, Ed Pocock, along with Zach Armstrong.

How are you doing, Zach? I am, I am well, Ed. I am basking in the glory of the Birds of the Crucible, singing their celebratory song, celebrating your return to the Guild of Discovery here in, here in Hub City. It's really a glorious celebration that they've brought to us. We have a guild? Uh, yeah, yeah, sorry, we, I, I established that while you were out.

I needed, I needed a governmental structure to act through, uh, to, to, uh, [00:03:00] organize your rescue. Oh, wow, that's so, like, classic British, you know, the pomp and ceremony of it all, and can we have, like, those pins that we can put on our lapels with our, our Call of Discovery Guild tag? Yeah, yeah, we, we definitely need pins.

I think pins would be great. And membership badges. We just sold our first ever Hoodie to a non host of Call of Discovery and I have no idea who it is So I feel like pins would just take off now. It's it's my mom. It's my mom Zach It's not my mom But yeah I'm completely up for it. You know, I've got the robes already and we can, we can go, you know, we can go easy at first.

We can, we can just summon a minor demon and then, you know, we'll see what happens. Uh, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, uh, let's table the demon thing. Uh, let's, let's, let's table that until after we've interviewed our lovely [00:04:00] guest today. Yes. And in terms of our lovely guest, uh, today, we are lucky enough to be joined by YouTube extraordinaire, Mr.

Board Gamer. BJ, how are you doing? I'm great guys, thank you, I appreciate you inviting me to chat with you guys this weekend. Yeah, absolutely, and you're more than welcome to join our secret society of not summoning demons. Ah, I think I'm more of the summoning demons type, so Okay, okay. Yeah. Zack, I think you're The summoning demons disclaimer has raised a lot more questions already answered by the not summoning demons disclaimer.

I'm afraid, Zack, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 here, so, uh, I'm afraid Afraid demons. It is. Looks like we're getting disk back in the next set. Oh, well, well, there, there we go. Let me, let me call up Iona, the demonologist real quick. We're gonna need some professionals on hand. Demonologist . Yeah. Yeah. She's, they're, they're on the flavor text for, uh, the rics, I think.

Okay, your knowledge of this game, Zach, [00:05:00] always astounds me. I know, wow. Deep cuts. Wait, is this another quiz showdown episode? I'll stop flexing. We know that card never works out well. Either way, we are going to be talking today all about accessibility for new players and why it matters. Really, really excited to dive into something that is a really crunchy topic, and I think it's never too far from anyone's thoughts, um, or conversations about this game.

Uh, but before we dive into our focus topic, we always do like to get to know our guest a little bit better. So, uh, Mr. Board Gamer, BJ, how did you first discover KeyForge, and what really made it sticky for you? Yeah, um, well, I started playing KeyForge, um, probably, [00:06:00] uh, I think 2017, 2018, I went into my local game store, and I was with a friend who was visiting from out of town, we just grabbed a starter set and played, and what we loved about it was, um, The randomness.

And at first we kind of just understood it as randomness and we're like, okay, like there's not really anything deeper to what kind of decks you get. It's kind of just lucky if you get a good deck and you play it and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But then we started to realize, you know, how the turn order and how the sequence that you would play cards in was just tweaked slightly from, we were huge magic players, so it was tweaked slightly enough for you to feel like.

Okay, this is actually a tactical game. It's not about how many creatures I have out. It's not about how much firepower I have. It's about how I'm actually triggering my deck to play itself. And that, to me, was just like, okay, I'm done with magic. I'm [00:07:00] done just going to Friday Night Magic every week and dropping 30 to get a bunch of random cards that I'm like, okay, I could kind of piece something together with this.

But Then I might want to go out and buy like a 12 card if I want to actually be competitive. Um, this was just nice to do, you know, sealed events at my local store to be able to do, uh, you know, tournaments where you could have three decks, you know, ranked one, two, three. My first Vault Tour was, uh, back in 2020.

Um, and that was just like. Really seeing how people played such unique decks and decks that didn't have the best synergy and didn't have, like, all the best cards that you were looking for, but just the commons and the way people would chain things together, that just sold me on it. I am now obsessed with this game.

I just got my Dark Tidings pack so I really gotta catch up um on the whole card list and you know start pulling [00:08:00] some decks but I'm really excited to talk about this today with you guys. Yeah, yeah that's uh like what you said a deck that just kind of has its own tricks and game plan that you've got to find and then trigger.

Finding decks that like have a clear game plan that got generated out of the algorithmic jungle is. Absolutely one of my favorite things. I've got at least two or three decks off the top of my head. Where like they're all it's all focused on like one game plan and they might not even be the strongest decks But man, they just sing like it's just oh, oh, yeah, I love it I think one thing that I always noticed was that people When I would start talking about KeyForge when I first started playing I think it's come a long way even in the past two years.

Like would you guys agree with that? Yeah, people people are surprised it's it's still around and I think the community We have enough years of the game succeeding under our belt, and we all [00:09:00] know the game well enough that it's much easier to sell people on now, rather than it just being kind of the fad, right?

Yeah. Definitely. And it's more deep now. It's deeper. The gameplay experience is deeper. Um, the interactions between decks is more interesting, arguably, and in my opinion, anyway. Um. Which is awesome, although you've got, you've got a good first set to, to bed people into the game, but that's one that we can discuss shortly.

Um, BJ, what is the most memorable experience you've had playing KeyForge or interacting with the KeyForge community? Yeah, um, I think when I went to The Albany Vault Tour, um, that was when I went in 2020 with my same buddy who I got my first decks with. Uh, I went up to his place, he lives in Buffalo. Went up to visit him [00:10:00] and stayed at his house for a couple days and worked from there remotely.

And we just played KeyForge during lunch and then we played KeyForge after work. And then we went to his parents in Lake George, which was about an hour and a half from The Albany Vault Tour, we went there on Friday night and we had dinner with his parents and we talked to them about KeyForge and then we played, you know, both his parents are retired and living in Lake George and we're just like, you know, these 29, 30 year old guys, like, hey, let's go, you know.

Talk to our parents, reconnect with our parents, play more KeyForge in the basement, and then drive an hour and a half to this tournament, and then we met a guy from Texas, um, who was a photographer and a teacher, and just talking to him, um, about it. You know, the kids that he taught and what his community was like back in Texas, that was awesome to me because I wasn't expecting to meet someone, you know, that could be such [00:11:00] a close friend and I still keep in touch with him to this day.

Um, but I think it was like the way he would explain the cards to us and walk us through like what was considered like, you know, uh, at that time it was, I think Worlds Collide was the most recent set at that time. So It was kind of just like learning all the card lists from him, hearing the names of cards and the nicknames that, you know, the community had put on cards and actually being a part of that community after bringing, you know, kind of like that weekend was like, I went to my, one of my best friend's houses, then we went to his parents house, then we went to this tournament and made a new best friend.

It was just amazing to kind of see how This community was like supporting us playing this game and going to have fun and just blowing off some steam with something that was a hobby for us. We weren't like, Oh, we're going to win the Vault Tour, but we were like, Hey, let's go have fun. And that's like meet new people and.

You know, have people to play online with and everything. So [00:12:00] I think like that whole week of that Vault Tour experience was definitely my best memory of KeyForge. Hmm. Oh, that's, that's awesome. That's awesome. And I found that, um, I know plenty of games can have like great communities, but the, the way KeyForge is designed where.

Um, like, yes, you can go out and buy an amazing deck if you've, you know, got the money and you want to, but most of the community, like, you know, might buy a deck here or there off the secondary market, but it's mostly just buying and enjoying the decks they have, whatever strength they're at, and so it's, it's just more, there, there's less, uh, there's less, like, intimidation factor.

I guess? In that side of it, because all of my best decks that I would take to an Archon event, like I all spent, I spent 10 or less dollars on them because I either got them from my friendly local game store or in a bulk purchase, um, you know, on an online sale. So it's really, it's much lower key and it just gives more room for people to be friendly [00:13:00] like that.

Or less room for them to be nasty, I think. Yeah, I agree. Oh, and the decks that we played with when we were at that Vault Tour were the decks that we had, like, from, I think one of them was still from my starter set. And one of his was from his starter set. And then we just bought two there and we're like, all right, let's play.

And we like lost our first, I think we both won our first game and then he lost. And then I won. And then I started losing more, and then we met this guy, Rolando, and he taught us about the cards, and the meta, and the things to look out for, and when you read a deck list, this is how you should look at it.

And then we just started winning more. And it wasn't, we didn't buy new decks, we just learned the game, and we thought about the mechanics and how all of these cards would play together, and the probability of like, you know, someone having an answer, and we were just like, alright, let's get better. And that's what I loved about it, like [00:14:00] seeing In real time, in like a two day event, seeing that change was just, oh, that's, that was dope.

Man, what awesome people at this Vault Tour between the Texas teacher and then like the legendary Rolando, my gosh, that's awesome. Oh no, Rolando is the Texas teacher. Oh, excuse me. Oh, this is the same person. Oh, yeah. That's awesome. This is definitely a man of legend. We love Rolando. My gosh. So BJ, we've spoken a bit about KeyForge's past and a bit about its present, but what are you most looking forward to doing in KeyForge after the pandemic when we can Actually meet people in person again and, uh, share this passion for this game that we all love.

Yeah, so, um, a big thing that I'm doing right now, uh, with Mr. Board Gamer is I am, as I'm making videos, I want to continue to kind of, like, build a playlist, create a playlist around KeyForge mechanics and, uh, rules and new [00:15:00] sets. And I also want to Kind of compile this program, uh, that I'll be able to bring to kids in New York City public schools, um, where we can do some competitive, you know, games after school.

A lot of kids play Magic, some kids play Pokemon, but to give them, you know, more access to KeyForge, I want to be able to do that. Um, and because it's, you know, so affordable, like even, you know, me as an individual, I'm able to You know, accumulate enough decks and, like, prepare for an event like this. So it's nice, and to be able to, you know, give to kids.

You know, one of my buddies, uh, who teaches in Queens, he is also the facilitator and supervisor for, like, an after school anime group. And they play the Dragon Ball Z card game. So to be able to continue giving kids in public schools access to Uh, not only just, you know, tabletop games and trading [00:16:00] card games, but like, competitive arenas for those games, definitely want to be able to do that.

So, that's what I'm most excited for, to be able to continue getting people to want to learn the game and want to play the game, so that programs like that can be made possible. Um And I got a lot of friends, you know, that teacher friend, Rolando, who's also a teacher down in Texas. A lot of people that I can reach out to, um, and hopefully you guys to help get some people involved in that kind of initiative.

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Uh, in the past couple of weeks, uh, our, uh, companion podcast Help From Future Self has been doing giveaways of decks to people. And I know they, they, uh, gave away a bunch of decks to someone. I believe there may have been an NFR school program. There was also a women's shelter, uh, that got a lot of KeyForge decks, uh, just to add to the things they have there as far as recreation is concerned.

So, uh, and I see, uh, listeners, I see a lot of people [00:17:00] out there just saying, Oh, I have so many decks, what do I do with them? This is a problem. One, I mean, that happens in MTG2 with cards, right? Yeah. But, uh, that look, look around for, uh, cause They don't have to deck build. Look around for an afterschool program in your area.

Find somebody doing a board game program, uh, maybe in a few cities over if it, if it takes that and you can, you can give away some extra decks there. They're, uh, yeah, KeyForge decks are ready to play, which makes it perfect for that. Yeah. And I, I love that, you know, there could always be an opportunity for someone to take a deck that doesn't have a lot of wins that feels impossible to play and for somebody to solve it.

And be able to say, no, that's my deck now and be able to like, you know, claim, uh, claim the right to that deck is something that I'm, I'm interested in seeing how we can create some events and maybe some skits on the YouTube channel around [00:18:00] decks and archon personalities. Um, so I'm definitely going to be reaching out to you guys so we can pull more people into this community.

Awesome. We're always up for any endeavors that involve, involve that, um, and giving something back. So, yeah, let's, uh, let's definitely pursue. Yeah. And, uh, I guess the, one of our, just last personal questions here. So, BJ, you've got the, the YouTube channel as MrBoardGamer. How, uh, What role did KeyForge play in you getting the channel started?

I believe that started about nine months ago in August 2020, if my research is correct. Yeah, I think my first upload was, I think maybe I uploaded like the, uh, season intro in August. But I think my first actual video was September, um, and I did start off pretty early with KeyForge stuff, I think, in September, um, and yeah, it was huge, I [00:19:00] started it because I went to that Vault Tour and I didn't see, uh, a lot of people of color, you know, like, I'm a black man, I went to it and I didn't see any other black folks there, um, You know, my friend Rolando, uh, was a Mexican man and he didn't see any other Mexican folks there.

And like when he, you know, introduced himself to us, he was like, Oh, I wasn't sure what kind of people I would meet here. Cause I'm traveling alone all the way from Texas and did kind of hear that. And like, you know, if I wasn't with my best friend who I felt safe with and everything, you know, and I was leaving the state to go somewhere, like if I was going to Texas, you know, maybe.

I would, you know, want to check out the area, figure out like where I'm going to be staying, and sure, you know, if I'll be alone. So I was like, I don't really feel that way, because I'm from New York, and that guy went to college in Albany. So I'm kind of just like, but it's interesting that he had to worry about that or think about that [00:20:00] traveling to something that.

He's here to enjoy, like it's a hobby for him. So I was like, if what it's going to take is him being, feeling comfortable that he can like approach me and say like, Hey man, like, can I be your friend? Like, can we like talk to each other? Cause like, you know, I don't see anyone else who looks like us and I just want to know.

I got some people to talk to. So then we went out, we grabbed dinner and everything with them. We got a couple of drinks, um, and yeah, we kept in touch. So it's nice to be able to build community like that. So that's what I want my big contribution to this community to be, to be able to like, you know, create more space for other folks and invite other folks into the community and also support everything that.

The existing community has, um, but just kind of expanded and keep supporting something that makes. Playing and competing so accessible. Oh, yeah, that's, that's awesome. That, [00:21:00] what, what a good goal for a YouTube channel too, right? To like serve, serve a need that you've identified. Um, and, uh, if people are seeing me around on the internet, I've already been, you know, trying to post your, uh, KeyForge shirt turnover view pretty much everywhere I can.

Like under four minutes, super clear. So, excuse me. So if you, if you haven't checked out his channel, definitely go do that. Um, uh, I think some other games you cover like Dice Throne, uh, Sentinels of the Multiverse, uh, then a couple of topics like the gateway stuff, uh, and then Blurred Talk, which all kind of point towards that mission you were, you were talking about.

So that's, that's awesome. Thank you. And I appreciate you sharing it, uh, everywhere and getting it some views. Thank you. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm very, we're very excited to see what you do with the YouTube channel in coming weeks and months. We've got no doubt that whatever it is, it's going to be a good thing [00:22:00] for KeyForge and fans of board games more generally.

Um, but in the meantime, um, let's have a conversation around. The approachability of KeyForge to new players and why it matters and a good place probably to get started here is by looking at some of those characteristics that really set KeyForge apart from other card games in terms of how easy it is to get into.

So Zach and BJ, what are some of those things that make KeyForge uniquely approachable at that ground level?

I think the first thing is Um, I think the distribution model, right, that there's, I feel like this is always talk to at death, but, uh, or talk to ad nauseum to death, but the fact that you can't just go out and you're not just purchasing, you [00:23:00] know, typically you're not just purchasing. The best cards and, you know, getting to customize your deck and net deck, um, to just create something that's super dominant and is full meta, you know, if you go into a sealed event, then you're That's the best way to play.

You know, you know that even if you're not in a sealed event, no matter what, your deck is the only one of its kind that exists. So, it's really about just how you play and, you know, how you respond to your opponent's deck. Um, and even a low rated deck or a deck with low synergy can still end up winning a game.

It's really just about How you play it and respond to what's happening. So I think that's one thing that kind of just the knowledge of mechanics is the biggest component of success in the game. And it's not how much you invest, how much money you invest into the hobby. So, [00:24:00] starting there, it's great, um, and then I think really looking at each deck as like a puzzle, as like, trying to figure out what are its strengths, where are the synergies, um, and having that kind of system, a system, uh, of having the decklist and being able to actually be.

In real time, I guess, um, it makes it more accessible for people to be trying to track their cards and figuring out, okay, what am I going to discard to run my deck down so I can reshuffle it? Um, so I think there's all these different mechanics that continue to lend itself to being accessible for people to improve without investing a lot of money into it.

Yeah, I, I totally agree. I totally agree. I think there's so many decisions to make with any one deck that if you play the deck for the enjoyment of getting to know that deck, of course, you know, trying to play to win any [00:25:00] given match, but if your overall goal is to just like learn the deck, find the new, find the new combos, learn new situations in different matchups, you're going to get a lot of value.

Out of a, out of a single deck, uh, something Richard Garfield said when he was on was, uh, about taking, you know, taking ownership of your play experience. Um, I think it's fair to ask of things for FFG, right? But then there's also, like, well, how do you enjoy it? Just go do that, and Help From Future Self did a whole episode on it.

And I think being able to take one deck and just say, well, I'm going to practice these couple of decks because I really like how they play. And sure, maybe I'm going to, you know, lose over half the time and casual play with my friends, but because I really like these decks, like, there's just going to be joy I can find in digging into them.

I think that's a, uh, that's certainly a kind of person who enjoys that, will love getting into KeyForge. Definitely. And if we capture here the inescapable comparison between KeyForge and constructed [00:26:00] decks, and yeah, we have to be open about this, that this is something that puts people off from this game quite often.

People think, well I want to build my own deck, I want to have the flexibility to have a deck that is Ultimately unique to me, and I'm using that term charged here, because what I'm going to say is when we were much younger and that Yu Gi Oh! anime was out, it captured such an excitement of discovery.

They'd turn up, there'd be these things that they'd never seen before, and they'd be like, wow, what do I do now? But the game never really captured that, because ultimately with the reality of Net decking, those two or three cards, and I think our sister podcast, Help From Future Self, mentioned this a few weeks ago.

Those two or three cards that you think are your own spin on a deck, that you've put into a deck in a constructed format, can so easily have to come out just because you have to end up fine tuning that deck, because everyone else does. And this is not a thing to even worry about with KeyForge, because everyone has unique decks.

There [00:27:00] are cards in a lot of decks that are going to be synergizing in ways. that just haven't been comprehended, and hell, there are synergies that haven't even been printed that are plausible. It is a complete, completely new paradigm for these kind of games, and for those types of players, it makes it really accessible and exciting.

But it also means that, to a certain extent, we're all on a level playing field because we've never, we've never seen the deck we're playing against before. Whereas if you're playing against a meta deck, you might have played against it a hundred times before.

Yeah, and I think that one thing that kind of, I mean, I can't disagree with people who might agree with that or who that might resonate with, but I do think that one thing I hear, uh, some of my friends who have that perspective say is like, oh, there's also no, you can't get like holographics or you can't get, [00:28:00] um, You know, any, like, crazy, like, epic card that you can then, like, make sure you use in your deck, and it's like, well, if it's a card that you really like, you can use it, and with what I thought was great in, uh, Mass Mutations, the gigantic cards, I was like, I'd much rather have a gigantic card than something holographic.

Like, you know, I'd much rather have an evil twin than something holographic, but I'd much rather have all those things. And so I think there's like, you know, there's trade offs in either end. But, um, if you're really looking for a game where like, You have like the, you know, the, the replayability, the vary, the variability and just like how unique it is that you will never come across an identical deck, uh, KeyForge just won out for me from like, you know, Yu Gi Oh or Magic.

Awesome. Awesome. I'd say that when people say, uh, [00:29:00] there's no deck building, I feel so restricted. Um, many times, sure, maybe a deck building game is the, you know, right. It's a thing to scratch that itch for the person, but many times I've found when people say, Oh, there's no deck building. I feel so restricted.

What they mean is that they would feel like the deck isn't uniquely theirs because they didn't work on it. However, given what we were talking about with the nature of net decks and then KeyForge's decks being unique, like no other in the world, I am more connected to these decks in the way that like these decks are unique.

Only I know how to play them. I can play this deck in a way. And surprise someone, right? Somebody can look at the decklist and go, oh, that looks normal, I guess. And then I play it in a way they go, oh, I had no idea this deck had that game plan. I've never seen, like, I've seen these things before, but I've never seen them used in that way.

Like, I have decks I could do that with, right? Maybe they're not going to win a Vault Tour, but they exist! And that's, that's the point I want to get across to people who, who are sad that there's no deck [00:30:00] building and then write it off. And to that end, I suppose we're using deck building here in terms of it's a means.

And the end it's a means to is having a unique game experience. It is having an experience with a deck of cards that is unique to you. And Arguably, in today's world, with netdecking as it is, KeyForge offers that much better than its competitor games that offer you deck building, because actually that end experience is much more nuanced, is much more different between game to game.

Beautifully said. So we've spoken a bit about distribution, um, should we talk about price point? Yeah. And to set things off here, um, Whilst most of us probably have a few more than I'd say one 10, 10, 10 deck, you don't necessarily need that many decks to play KeyForge, or [00:31:00] to sort of remain competitive in the game across different variants, whereas I suppose to look at Magic, which is the obvious punch bag here, there are even booster packs that are going over 100 now.

Certain variants, certain formats in, in Magic are costing hundreds of pounds to get a deck that actually means that you can get up, get on the table there and play it. Um, and KeyForge offers you something very, very different, even at its worst in terms of cost for a viable. Archon deck, um, which is KeyForge's competitive, um, yeah, who's, who's the biggest deck kind of, my deck's, uh, my deck's got a bigger sass than yours kind of format.

It's still not anywhere near the same price, so do we think that KeyForge is more accessible in price, or do we think realistically it's going to cost the end? The end buyer the same amount in terms of they're going to end [00:32:00] up buying a lot of decks. I mean, I think if you end up buying a lot of decks, that's your decision.

You got to face your family. I'm glancing at my decks as you say this, but I think, you know, I've kept the same. Like, one Age of Ascension and two World's Collide decks. I've kept those in my deck box for the longest time. Like, through mass mutation and now after I've opened maybe like three or four Dark Tidings packs.

Um. Still, I've got like these same three decks right now that I've just started to change out and I'm kind of like, I didn't need all these other decks, but because it's so affordable, you know, 10 a deck, okay, I'll, I'll grab a couple and, you know, maybe I'll grab a box every once in a while and [00:33:00] kind of just see like what I get.

If I get anything that's exciting, I'll play it a bunch and if I don't like it, I'll save it and, you know, maybe a friend of mine plays it. Likes it. Beats me. And then, like, all right, yeah, you can have the deck, you know, it's just nice to have that flexibility with the game, and I wouldn't have that flexibility with a game like Magic or Yu Gi Oh or even Pokemon.

Like I think, I think people really under Estimate how expensive Pokemon can be too, if you're buying boosters. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So I think, yeah, there's definitely, if we're just looking at like baseline, the, the price point across all card games, I think KeyForge is clearly dominant in the affordability area.

But I do think that. It can rack up, but that's to the level that you're having fun, you know, if I'm having fun with these three decks, I could just play with [00:34:00] these three decks against anything that anybody has, but if I hear there's gigantic creatures going for a gigantic creature, you know, if I hear that there's new sea monsters, I'm going for new sea monsters.

Oh yeah, yeah, we've got to embrace the whimsy of the Crucible, haven't we? We really do, we really do. So, with price point in mind there, we've already mentioned some of the variants, and I suppose here we can break it down to, you have Archon, which is bring your biggest, toughest, most muscly deck. You have Adaptive, which is bring your wittiest deck and try and outmaneuver your opponent by sheer skill.

Um, and we have Sealed, which is embrace the whimsy and wonder of the Crucible. Um, and yeah, let's have a talk about those and break them down and see which are accessible from different angles. So, I guess let's [00:35:00] start with Archon. Some thoughts to consider here, it's more expensive to find that deck that is truly viable, uh, at a big archon tournament, can play against the other, the other, uh, most powerful decks in the meta, um, but at the same time, you only need one deck, and if you can't play that format, then you've still got a lot of other formats you can play.

Zach and BJ, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I think, I would definitely say that Archon may be the least, if, you know, I'm not saying it's not accessible, you know, that many decks for some people may be affordable and may be fine, but I would say if it is like the primary, Archon, You know, the S tier of competition, it would be the least accessible just [00:36:00] in that, like you said, you've got to, you could spend a reasonable amount trying to find that like perfect deck, or if you're even doing like a Vault Tour, find those like perfect three decks that you want to take in with you.

Yeah. Um. But then I think, like, the other, like, Sealed. I really like Sealed. I love Sealed for, like, you know, a 12 person Sealed tournament would be fun to just see, like, what do people pull? And sometimes the person in there who's, like, the best and dominates everyone, they're gonna win. And they're going to get a crazy, you know, 75 SAS deck and they're like, Oh, this is so easy to play, but sometimes someone's going to get like a 50 SAS deck and they're just going to figure it out and somehow they're going to get four wins and then they're going to, you know, get a buy and then they're going to win again.

So it's, you never know with [00:37:00] Sealed, so I do love Sealed and I do think. For everyone just getting a blind deck, that is the most accessible way to play, but, um, I definitely love Archon. Yeah. Because I think, uh, the accessibility of Archon, right, depends on the context, right? So if you're just playing Kitchen Table, then you can, you know, play any old thing, just straight head on and enjoy it.

Uh, but Where you start to see some, I think, variability is a chain bound, right? And it depends on how many people are your chain bound, what's the general attitude about decks that you would bring. Um, cause I once brought a, and I didn't realize what I was doing at the time, right? Um, but I once brought, uh, like my Heart of the Forest deck that has all of the Heart of the Forest tools, it has Glimmer.

It has KeyCharge, that sort of thing, to try to pin the opponent down and then come back and win. And I went 3 1 with that deck, even though, like, generally speaking, it's not a great deck. It just has this one thing going on for it, and I was able to bring that [00:38:00] to Archon and get, like, 3 wins out of it. Um, only being taken down by, you know, one of the, the stronger players in the, uh, in the area.

So, I think Archon depends on the context, uh, but like at a Vault Tour or something, yeah, you're, you're really right. That's where, like, you can go to have fun, but you'd, you'd want to start to pack some heat if you want a chance at, like, doing well in day two. Um, but I think, I think at a Vault Tour, you could at least go, you know, 3 3 or 4 2 with any old deck from your collection that you know really well.

Yeah. Oh yeah, and I, I have to say I've actually done that. I went to a Vault Tour, an Archon Vault Tour with a deck. It's all right. It's pretty good, but it's, it's your standard collection deck. I'll put it that way. Um, and I had a great time and I went 3 3, which is just the end score for any Call of Discovery host.

Um, it's true. That's all we've ever done at Vault Tours is 3 3. The moment that you top cut a Vault Tour, Zach, you are off the podcast. [00:39:00] Uh, then, yeah, I hope you like me, because I'll be here for a while. Oh, but no, S. E. A. L. D. is, is so much fun, and, um, we have to say here that when you're doing the, the, uh, Formal Vault Tour Sealed events, then you get three decks to pick from, which adds an element of skill, but it also means that you can pick some cards that you like the look of and play them, um, which is exactly what I did at my first Vault Tour, uh, when I was, to be honest, still learning the rules of KeyForge, and I had a great time with it, so I can say quite confidently that Sealed is relatively accessible, or to the extent that the set that What do we think about adaptive?

Because adaptive is a really interesting one that really allows you to bring your blue eyes white dragon deck to the table, the deck that is uniquely yours, that you love, but it doesn't have to be adaptive. A Blue Eyes White Dragon in [00:40:00] terms of power level, perhaps you love, yeah, as BJ, you were saying earlier, perhaps you love a sea creatures deck, which happens to be quite easily lightly toasted by a Blue Eyes White Dragon, but, you know, it's not in the event of Adaptive, because we have this incredible and quite unique power, power level system called Chains.

Yeah, I, uh, so one time, I have a bad, bad history with Playing Adaptive. We did a side event that was like, each team, it was a side event for teams of three. Uh, me, Dave, and Rolando. Then, we got three decks each, and we had to choose one deck that was going to be our good deck. It would just be the deck that person, player A played with.

Player B had to play with What we thought was, um, our worst deck that we [00:41:00] wanted the enemy team to play with. So our player B would take a bad deck and then give it to their player B and their player B would give them another deck. And then the last one was adaptive and I got stuck in the adaptive. So there was a deck that had, it was like one of those, I think this was from like Age of Ascension or maybe.

World's Collide, but, uh, it was just stacked with Mega Lockers, and I was like, okay, like, I want that one. The other guy, he also wanted that one. So we went up to like 11, 12 chains, uh, and I took them. I took All 12 chains. Oh no. And it came down to the last turn to check and he had a keyfrog. And just on his turn, done, like forged a key at [00:42:00] cost.

And I was just like, well, that sucks. And that's the last time I ever played Adaptive. Since then, I was like, I can't do it. Was that, that was a, uh, that, that was a, you said it was a close game, though? Oh, yeah. It was dangerously close. Oh, well, hey, that's, that's better than it being a blowout, because the, I mean, the thing about Adaptive is, um, while I love it because it weaponizes your deck knowledge, uh, the other, the other layer there is that you also have to know Kind of how to bid and how the chains affect, uh, whatever deck they'll end up on.

Uh, but that's great that it was close. Yeah. Um, it was just a lot of me just moving Amber around and smashing anything he put on a battle line. And in, yeah, that's generally a decent strategy in KeyForge, moving Amber around and smashing things. So I guess to that end, it's accessible in terms [00:43:00] of. You can bring any deck to the table, but, uh, as, as, as you said, Zach, there, it weaponizes your deck knowledge, so it is very much more welcoming to players that understand the game at a deeper, a deeper level, and maybe slightly less It's forgiving of new player mistakes than a new player playing a Cota beatdown deck.

Yeah, I agree completely. I think there's a tradeoff, right? Because you can become an amazing adaptive player and, you know, regularly, day two, if there was like, you know, best of three adaptive vault tour or whatever, if you purchased a single deck and then knew that deck in and out and, you know, selected the deck for adaptive, maybe it's a little more tricky.

Right? Um, and just played that deck over and over, and you knew exactly how chains affect it. You knew how chains affected all manner of different, uh, other kinds of [00:44:00] decks in the matchups. You know what happens when the deck with chain starts to run out of chains and then comes back to its regular power level, uh, later in the matchup.

Um, so that's the trade off, is that you don't nec you don't need, like, a strong deck. Uh, it's better if it's a complicated deck or a slightly unclear deck, although in Uh, and regular KeyForge. Adaptive, of course, a full game. Your opponent will get to see you play it first. Um, but the, the trade off is that you need to know the deck, you need to know any nuances with rules involved in the deck, and then you also need to know, uh, You need to be good at chain bidding and knowing how the chains will affect, will affect either deck.

So there's a lot of skill to be had in Adaptive, um, and a lot of thoughts about what kind of deck to pick for Adaptive. Uh, so I think it's a great skill, intensive skill focused variant for that purpose. Uh, you just have to be aware of the whole chains thing. Uh, it's not just play your deck in Archon and you'll be great at it in Adaptive, which that'll [00:45:00] help, but you need to practice your deck in Adaptive to be good at Adaptive.

Now there's another format here that we haven't mentioned, which I want to bring in because I absolutely love it, and that is Multiplayer KeyForge, and by that I mean 3 is better than 2, um, so 3 player KeyForge, maybe 4 player KeyForge, we'll keep it at 3, but this, I think, is a great format for introducing new players to the game, because you do it in a slightly less, just me against you kind of environment.

There's a bit of a weird dynamic when you're teaching a friend to play a game, and Playing against them at the same time, and even though you're playing against them in a three player dynamic, it's, it's less targeted. Three player means you're constantly looking at who's the biggest threat, and the newer player, by virtue of them being a newer player, you know, it gives them a bit more space to make mistakes there, and the other two players in the game can kind of [00:46:00] fight, fight it out, and give that new player a bit of space to make those mistakes, and actually still have a Have a chance at getting the win at the end of the game when it comes down to it, because if the other two players have just focused on, on each other, this, uh, the third player, the newer player might, might have a, might have a chance, but it really does give a bit more space.

The downside, I suppose, is that you could be overloaded by new cards, and the number of things happening at any one time is, is more, but I think it's fair to say there is a reason that Commander, as a format in Magic the Gathering, which is for 4 players, um, is, uh, is, is, is a successful casual format, and that is because, um, yeah, it is less me versus you and more, more group orientated.

Yeah, I definitely agree. Commander is the only form of magic [00:47:00] that I've been interested in lately. Um, but, I think that, yeah, I, I've only played, uh, Three player KeyForge. I haven't played four, but I'm interested. If you have links to any rules or tips, definitely want to know how to do that. Yeah, I think you're right, and I think the way the mechanics work in the game and how they, like, the cards interact with each other, I think it really, it does lend itself to being a great, like, multiplayer Alright, like, multi multiplayer, uh, game.

Definitely, definitely. Yeah. And, uh, obligatory shout out, of course, because I've had great success with it, to KeyForge Adventures, especially Rise of the Key Raken. As a intro point for people, I've played Rise of the Key Raken multiple times with a friend where [00:48:00] I just, I'm able to hand him a new player at Dark Tidings deck, even though they're a little more thinky.

Because we both can have Dark Tidings decks against the Key Raiken and it's been just such an enjoyable experience, um, to do that just repeatedly with this new player who can really get used to KeyForge in, it's just us versus the Key Raiken. I can, you know, provide tips as appropriate. I'm also giving my firepower and, you know, it's against this my giant eight and a half by eleven inch, uh, Key Raiken.

on the other side of the table. Um, so yeah, that's, that's a great way to, to, to ease people, to ease people into the game is, is KeyForge Adventures 2. I haven't been able to try it yet, but I'm, oh, it's so fun. I just ordered a print copy of it. So good, good. Yeah. Yeah, I can't, I'll be diving into Abyssal Conspiracy probably sometime next month, uh, but The Rise of the Key Raken has been getting plenty of play, uh, with me, which is, it's just been, it's been awesome.

I love it. Awesome. [00:49:00] I think we'd be remiss here not to mention Accessibility in KeyForge Adventures and, you know, we talked about the importance of distribution model for accessibility in the competitive version of KeyForge, I think this is also a factor in the cooperative version of KeyForge and yeah, it's in good hands with FFG because they are the best in the business at making it.

Co operative card games, of which KeyForge Adventures is a part. But I suppose, you know, the pro of KeyForge Adventures at the moment is that they made it and they got it out there to us as quickly as they could so that we could play KeyForge during the pandemic. But at the same time, the downside to that is, for most of us, it's probably harder to go and print off all these cards than it is just to go and buy a pack.

And we've seen over the past couple of weeks that FFG have been really innovating what they're doing with some of those Co operative living card games, perhaps we could see something along the same lines at a reasonable price point in KeyForge, where a new player can pick up a deck of, of [00:50:00] KeyForge cards, can pick up a, um, a pack of KeyForge adventure scenarios, and really learn that way, and maybe they don't even need to learn with someone else in the room, you know, they, they can learn themselves, or perhaps even you'd have a, uh, a basic deck of KeyForge cards within that, Cooperative Key Forge set that is designed for a new, newer player to have a good experience with that scenario or set of scenarios.

Can you tell Ed really likes the idea of Key Forge Adventures ? Oh, I'm loving it. I, I can't wait to play it. I have like so many other like, cooperative campaign games, uh, Lord of the Rings Journeys in Middle Earth. Aeons, End, Legacy, um, so many games, so I can't wait to get, uh, onto the cooperative KeyForge.

But, I think, yeah, you're right, and I [00:51:00] hope that, um, I'll be able to, yeah, kind of contribute to getting some copies of it. Um, I think there's so many, like talented folks on Reddit who are talking about how they've shared like their dimensions, which is what I use to be able to find out how to do it. And, um, somebody had printed them at, I'm trying to figure out where this OfficeMax was, but they said it was like 6 at OfficeMax to print everything.

Um, I don't, I don't believe it, but if you find the OfficeMax somewhere. That charges that little to print all of that, um, and they have front and back to, like, the cards. Definitely want to find that, but, um, yeah, I think there's definitely ways that, you know, we can make them available at, like, local game stores and get some copies printed and, you know, kind of just there to leave for folks.

So, I'm going to try to do that with my local store. Yeah, yeah, I guess my hope here is that FFG Print these [00:52:00] two scenarios with a few more as a first of an ongoing series of KeyForge Adventures Scenarios, but yeah, we can see with Marvel Champions They have scenarios that are loosely connected as a wider story and that might work well for KeyForge But it's probably a lower barrier to entry for most Particularly newer players, if it is printed as a set rather than if we have to go out and print them ourselves, um, and, uh, yeah, as, as, as you said, BJ, you know, the cheapest is sort of six, six dollars, but you've got to do a lot of graft, you've got to do a lot of grafting to try and find that.

Uh, so, yeah, most of us are going to be paying a little bit more than that. By which point, you kind of shrug your shoulders and go, Oh, could have just bought it. Yeah, right, right. So, we've, uh, we've talked about all of these awesome factors about KeyForge, right? There's lots of, kind of, plans of attack of like, Here's how KeyForge is great, here's what we can use.

But, like, how [00:53:00] So, BJ, how do you see yourself using These factors in KeyForge to grow community like in ways that other people like and how can other people do it too? Like we've talked about all this stuff What's the next step for somebody who does want to grow their KeyForge community and has just listened to this is all Has been refreshed and all these great things about KeyForge.

What do they do next? How do they use this information to grow a community? Yeah, uh, I mean, first off is definitely if folks want to try it, um, try the game and get a feel for it, um, there's so many great creators, um, whether, you know, you're listening to a podcast and hearing about It People's perspectives on the games like Zach and Ed's, or if you are watching videos, um, from me or anyone else, uh, on YouTube or Instagram, there's ways to like tap into the community and ask people what they like about it.

The KeyForge community on Reddit is also super [00:54:00] awesome. And extremely responsive like Redditors are. And then, uh, I think it's also just about playing the game and going to your local game shop and, uh, asking them if they've got KeyForge. If they don't have it, um, ask them, you know, if you can. Play KeyForge with some folks and bring some folks in, bring some extra decks.

If you need decks and you want to get in touch with somebody who can provide, uh, any decks for donations, reach out to me, uh, MrBoardGamer. Um, you can find my info on YouTube and then, uh. Other than that, like, you know, the Crucible online is free, 100 percent free. You can load any deck that you find online.

Uh, you can load into the Crucible and you can play with it and you can see why certain decks are rated as high as they are, as low as they are, if you really want to. You know, improve your knowledge of the game mechanics and strategy and all that. Um, so there's so many great online resources that are free.

But [00:55:00] also, if you want to get your hands on Dex, you gotta go to your local game store. Show them that you want to play KeyForge. See if there's any, uh, community events happening around you. There's a great online community that will also keep you in the loop on any public events that are happening. Um, But yeah, I think that's as much as I can say on how to grow KeyForge in our communities right now.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah, that, that's, that's great. That's great. Um, cause I think that, and then really everything we talked about, people can, you can really pick and choose, or, or other things that are important about KeyForge that we didn't touch on, right? You can just grab these things and say, Uh, as you're trying to get people into the game, you know, at, at board game nights, people are walking into your game store.

You've got all of these, all of these different cool factors that you can touch on, which might, different ones might be different to different people, right? Like, um, so like, my, my elevate, my go to elevator pitch, and I'd love to hear, like, if you, if you two have a go to [00:56:00] elevator pitch. My go to elevator pitch is that, well, you can buy a single deck for ten bucks.

That deck has a unique name, there's no other deck like it in the world, and it is yours, and only yours. Like, you pick it up, you open it, boom. Like, you have a unique experience, unique deck that nobody else has. And like, it's special in that way. Um, and I found that, that usually gets some nerdy eyes to, to light up and say, Oh, it's like, it's like my own, like, like talisman of legend.

It's my own KeyForge deck, even if it's, you know, a stinker. Like, it's my Stinker. It's great for adaptive or reversal. Um, that's, uh, yeah, that's my go to. That's my go to. Yeah, I don't know if I have a full elevator pitch, but definitely parts of that, just the, uh, these decks are randomly generated and completely unique to you.

Um, but also, I [00:57:00] really like to tell people, um, oh, I just lost my train of thought. Oh, I really like to tell people, and people love to hear, that there are no instants in KeyForge. Yes, oh gosh. Man, we could, we could talk another hour about that game design choice that's really helped accessibility. But that, that's a great one to bring up.

Yeah, that's a great one to bring up. But it also makes just things feel better as well, cause you can't, you can't be, uh Lured into a false sense of security for something and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's nice. There's a place for instance, definitely, but. Yes, I, I think so, but there's, uh, KeyForge's, KeyForge's whole vibe, I think, uh, with the comfort of your turn knowing that, like, You have control over it, and the other person isn't going to say, Oh, in this timing window, between when you take the card out of your hand and place it on the table, I will cast Annihilate Your Ego.

Like, like, it's just, [00:58:00] it's nice knowing that's not Anyone that starts a sentence with, This timing window, whilst I'm playing a game with them, is dead to me. Oh, they better be an animated character. Yeah, you better be an animated character, otherwise Timing window, I will cast. Sure. My gosh, . Well, I'm glad we never played Net Runner ed, because that game is entirely timing Windows

Oh, we will play Net Runner, I'm sure at some point, Zach. And, uh, you'll be That's a good one.

Oh, oh my gosh. Well, uh, gentle people. I think the biggest lesson we've learned from this is that, uh, there are so many points of. Approachability in KeyForge that we can't even fit them all into one episode as, uh, you know, BJ even mentioned the, uh, no, no, no instance, right? No, no interacting, or not no interacting, but no, uh, no [00:59:00] playing cards on your opponent's turn and the, the, that.

That KeyForge has is another point that we could get into for a long time, but, uh, we're going to wrap it up there. So, uh, BJ, known on YouTube as MrBorgGamer, thank you so much for coming out with us today. We're excited to have you back to talk about, uh, your Worlds Collide deck, uh, that we're going to be talking about you next week.

We're really looking forward to it. Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate, uh, the invite and it was good talking to you guys. Um, I look forward to playing with you guys. Yeah, that's fantastic. And, uh, are you, uh, elsewhere on the internet besides YouTube as MrBoardGamer that people should, uh, come find you?

I'm also on Instagram at MrBoardGamer, but YouTube is, uh, where you will find all of my work. Fantastic. Fantastic. Oh, make sure to get over there and subscribe. Uh, you will get some quality content, uh, every, every other week, [01:00:00] every other week from Mr. Board Gamer there. And listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Call of Discovery, and for joining us on this journey to talk about just how is KeyForge approachable and how can we use that to build our communities.

If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe on your podcast app of choice. And if you're new to KeyForge, this was your first episode, which would be just lovely, make sure to visit the new player guide on Archon, Arcana, the KeyForge wiki. That is linked below where you can get started on your own unique journey into this wonderful game.

And also on the topic of our game today, Community organizers, people getting people into KeyForge, use that new player guide, send that to people. It's a great resource for anybody who wants to start to take a deep dive in. If you're looking to support us monetarily, please visit our Patreon, linked below, where you can sign up to support us monthly and enjoy rewards like being a part of our exclusive discords where we got topics and questions for the show, which we got several of today.

where we talked about how is the archon variant, the archon format accessible, which was a [01:01:00] suggestion from Disciple, and then Duke, uh, the mighty submitter of topics, as always. And the other topic we got, of course, was, uh, elevator pitches from SporeGory. So, uh, if you want to support us, jump in there and, and get talking with Ed and I and our wonderful little community who, who, uh, gets to see all the guests coming in, uh, before, before they're announced.

Let us know what you'd like to see more or less of in future shows by interacting with us across all social media on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, or send us an email at podcast at call of discovery. You can also find all sorts of little information about Call of Discovery on our baby website at www.

callofdiscovery. com. But most importantly, dear listener, if you think a friend would enjoy this podcast, please help them to discover it. Have you answered the call of discovery?[01:02:00]